Push Hands without touching

Push Hands without touching

Postby kung fu fighter » Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:34 am

"From what I've been told by teachers of the so called internal arts, The whole purpose of pushing hands (which is their version of sticking hands), is for students to ultimately learn to do it without touching. Opening and closing without giving the energy or decepting it to find the direct line of attack! So once again the idea of doing it without touching was nothing new. It was the purpose of it.;)"

I read the above somewhere online

How does push hands in Taijiquan, Rou Sou in Baguazhang, or chi sao in wing chun translate into actual fighting when no contact has been established? like for example when fighting a long range fighter such as a western boxer or Jeet Kune Do man
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby Sugelanren » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:37 am

kung fu fighter wrote:"From what I've been told by teachers of the so called internal arts, The whole purpose of pushing hands (which is their version of sticking hands), is for students to ultimately learn to do it without touching. Opening and closing without giving the energy or decepting it to find the direct line of attack! So once again the idea of doing it without touching was nothing new. It was the purpose of it.;)"

I read the above somewhere online



The person who wrote that is an idiot.
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby sifu990 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:06 am

its "possible' that they are referring to learning to stick, so that you don't stick. This is saying that after literally thousands of hours of contact interpretation practising, one will stick for exceedingly momentary and exceedingly light touch so as to allow opponent to read as little as possible info ie none, while your attack with built in defense along the incoming limb is striking.. One would still stick or more likely hover in order to know where the attackers limb is and what adjustments they are trying to make. you see this in action occasionaly in wing tsun direct hits without clashing, or systema type avoidance movements on entering. Paukua does similar.
Cheng man-chin was quoted as not allowing an attacker to even feel his clothing. Ralston occasionaly demos in this manner.
Why would one in actual combat give your limb to be used as a lever, or aka grappling to be injured?
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby Parkallen » Mon May 04, 2015 4:32 pm

On an obliquely related note, I think that there are some issues with equalizing or even relating sticky hands and other connected type hand work with push hands. An important part of push hands are the techniques of ward off, press, push, and roll back, which are only used in there exact way in Tai Chi. Sticking, and adhering, and sensing are only the underlying concepts which hold up the specific techniques listed above. What I like about those basic techniques is the omission of striking as in any kind of punching. Striking is certainly included in Tai Chi but it is sidelined to a completely different way of thinking as demonstrated in basic push hands.
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby DPasek » Mon May 11, 2015 7:21 pm

I had not posted on this thread previously since I am really not familiar with rou sou or chi sao (Baguazhang, Wing Chun, Boxing, Jeet Kune Do...). My understanding is that we train push-hands in order to understand and control an opponent at the instant of contact as well as during prolonged contact. Any striker needs to cross a space where contact can be made prior to the strike landing, and rather than ‘covering’ or attempting to block the strikes, we are trying to understand and control the opponent from the instant that we make contact.

Boxing has highly trained skill with the jab, which I do not think was very common during the early development of Chinese fighting styles like Taijiquan, and I personally find that applying TJQ against a good jab to be rather difficult. As I understand it, TJQ specializes in practicing to control the in-between range that a striker needs to cross in order to land a blow, but outside the range typical for grapplers who would usually need to pass beyond this range in order to employ their arts’ strengths.

From this range, TJQ can either strike or grapple as we choose depending on the specific circumstances encountered. Generally we try to sense and understand the opponent’s response to our contact and interaction with them in order to use their responses (excesses and deficiencies) against them.

I do not think that we learn to fight without touching, but we should train proper responses to potential contact such that we have the proper alignments, spacing, etc. to enable us to apply the strengths of our style when the contact is first made. This is not unique, since, for example, boxers will use footwork, bobbing and weaving, covering and other techniques to respond to potential and actual punches from their opponents; our approach emphasizing stick/adhere and connect/follow is simply different.

Parkallen has brought up the issue of push-hands not being comparable to other styles of “connected type hand work” when striking is not included in the practice of push-hands. Well, it seems like different school traditions define the energies of TJQ differently, and practice push-hands differently, and while some may be very specific for Peng, Lu, Ji and An, others, like me, have very broad definitions. Since I find the image of a sphere very useful for explaining TJQ principles, this is what I tend to use when describing these energies. As has been discussed elsewhere on this forum, others may emphasize vectors, or how the opponent is affected rather than how the energies are produced, etc.

For me, striking fits within these four energies, and I think that striking should at least occasionally be included in our push-hands practice. Also, when we move beyond the fixed pattern push-hands drills into freestyle push-hands, we typically include more than the four primary energies of Peng, Lu, Ji and An. Many push-hands practices allow grabbing (Cai), use of the elbow (Zhou) or shoulder or hip (Kao) [at least to push or bump with, even if striking is not allowed] as well as applying torque (Lie), sometimes including joint locks. From my perspective, if I am struck it is due to a gap or weakness in my defensive sphere; a fault in my Pengjin.

So the question becomes, where does striking fit into your understanding of the energies of TJQ? While strikes are common in forms work, many do not know how to fit them into their understanding of the eight energies (or thirteen ‘postures’). When I mention that Chen style practices the energies of Peng, Lu, Ji and An when using knee to knee contact, some Yang stylists don’t immediately see how these four energies can be done with the knee due to having their own specific understandings of these energies being done in a certain way with their arms and hands. It also seems like some practitioners equate a specific technique that uses a specific energy as defining that energy rather than it being only one example of how that energy can be used in general.

For reference, the following are briefly my descriptions for the eight energies of TJQ:

Peng has two aspects, one being structure (the air properly inflating a rubber ball), and the other being the ability of that properly inflated ball to bounce something away from it.
Lu is the ability of the properly inflated sphere to rotate and divert energy contacting it.
While Peng and Lu are the two primary ways that a sphere reacts to incoming energy, An and Ji are the primary ways through which we attempt to control an opponent’s ‘sphere’. An interacts with the surface structure of their sphere while Ji seeks the weaknesses, gaps and cracks in order to penetrate into their defensive sphere. Another way of stating this is that An attacks or controls their Yang while Ji attacks or controls their Yin.

Since we are not simple spheres, we have additional ways to respond.
Cai is using our ability to grab.
Lie is using our ability to apply torque
Zhou is the ability to change our ‘sphere’ from the hands/feet as the contact point to instead using the elbows/knees, while Kao is the ability to change our ‘sphere’ to using our torso (shoulder/hips/back/chest).

TJQ seeks to maintain a proper balance of Yin and Yang such that we have neither excess nor deficiency, and we seek to control an opponent through their excesses and deficiencies. Since it is more difficult to learn to have ‘relaxed’ resiliency, most schools begin with a focus on relaxation and thus eliminate strikes from their push-hands in order to facilitate this. But it is my opinion that once a degree of relaxed resiliency is achieved, practitioners should add a greater awareness of deficiencies by adding striking into their push-hands practice. As I stated earlier, I consider being struck as an indication of deficiencies in my Pengjin (errors in my defensive ‘sphere’).

From the above descriptions, I am able to characterize almost all TJQ techniques into combinations of these eight energies. I realize that others will have different equally valid ways of understanding the eight energies, so I am just providing my perspective as food for thought. Hopefully readers will find this perspective to be interesting. I also hope that this post does not derail this thread.
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby Audi » Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:41 pm

I very much like most of what DPasek has said above, except that I have a somewhat different understanding of the eight energies.

The main issues is that our type of Tai Chi, and styles with similar approaches, focuses much less on training specific techniques and much more on training the energy that underlies them. This energy can best be detected, understood, and affected through contact. Push hands serves as a bridge between understanding the form and understand free fighting, because it begins to teach you how to interact with your opponent's energy.

In order for someone to hit you, they must attempt to touch you. We try to use that desire and that interaction to our advantage and use it to control the energy the opponent manifests to execute their technique. This may be the same purpose behind similar practices in other arts, like the sticky hands of Wing Chun; but I suspect that those arts are actually training something different that only looks similar on the surface.

Some people say things like push hands is just for learning sensitivity. I think that such statements are misleading when applied to approaches such as ours. Someone using just standard push hands skills could easily injure an opponent/partner quite badly if they had the skill and the motivation to do so. Most of the basic energy training does not, however, require that type of interaction and openly demonstrating such skills is not necessarily correlated with true martial ability.

Push hands is like western-style cake; and striking, kicking, takedowns, etc. are like icing. The cake by itself can do fine and can be very delicious. The icing, however, can cap it off and turn it into something really special. If, on the other hand, you go just for the icing, you will be left with a hollow feeling in your tummy with little substance.
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby DPasek » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:08 pm

Hi Audi,

Thanks for your post. While we typically view things from different perspectives, I almost always like what your thoughtful posts state. I especially liked the following:
Audi wrote:The main issues is that our type of Tai Chi, and styles with similar approaches, focuses much less on training specific techniques and much more on training the energy that underlies them. This energy can best be detected, understood, and affected through contact. Push hands serves as a bridge between understanding the form and understand free fighting, because it begins to teach you how to interact with your opponent's energy.

That is how I approach it as well, although I do know many schools who do emphasize the repetitious training of specific techniques.

I’m curious if you include strikes in your understanding of the eight energies. You have given varying explanations for them in the past including the following:
Audi wrote:Peng: When applied to you, you feel your energy buoyed away from your line of attack or defense. When you want to sink, you can only float.

Lu: You feel your energy converted from square to away from your line of attack or defense. What starts off square is involuntarily converted into another angle.

]Ji[/i: You feel your energy squeezed or bounced out of its location. You feel two energies cannot occupy the same space.

[i]An
: You feel your energy is suppressed so that it is covered and cannot get out. You want to unfold, but feel you cannot.

Cai: You feel your energy pulled out of position. You want to be still, but are forced to move.

Lie: You feel your energy whirled or snapped out of alignment. The energy flow gets a sudden kink.

Zhou: You feel your energy is elbowed in some way.

Kao: You feel your energy is manipulated by your opponent's mass.

and
Audi wrote:Let me try another list of correspondences for the bare hand energies that might be more reminiscent of the weapons energies:

Peng: protecting/floating
Lu: deflecting/levering
Ji: displacing
An: covering/smothering
Cai: plucking
Lie: twisting/swirling
Zhou: elbowing (secondary movement)
Kao: bumping/rammming/butting (tertiary movement)

It is not obvious from the above lists where strikes may fit into your understanding of Taijiquan energies. Although I tend to view the eight energies as being comprehensive (at least when defined as in my earlier post; and I think that you could see how strikes may be included), I know that others view the eight as the major energies of Taijiquan and that additional energies are also possible. If this is the case with your understanding of Taijiquan, then perhaps you do not even include striking in the eight energies, which is OK.

I’m not trying to create a dispute; I am merely sincerely interested in hearing your perspective since it is likely to differ from mine.

Thanks,
DP
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby Audi » Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:36 pm

Greetings Dan,

I am not sure we actually differ on much except for some nuances of terminology and perhaps some aspects of our theoretical frameworks.

I am unsure whether my teacher or the classics hold the eight energies to be comprehensive or not; however, my impression is that they do not. I don't have any particular objection if you hold that view and even see how it could have some advantages.

I should first clarify that I frequently dislike talking too much about "energies' in the plural, because it tempts me to envision mysterious "qi emanations" and make things more complicated than they perhaps need to be. I have probably learned more Chinese and read more traditional Chinese philosopher than the average Tai Chi enthusiast outside China, but my fundamental understanding about how the world works is still grounded in modern science and not in emanations of qi.

The classics taught about eight energies and assign them to the eight trigrams. I understand this as an implicit claim to an exhaustive classification that covers the totality of Tai Chi energy. Nevertheless, the writings of the various families talk a lot about other "energies" and don't seem too bothered about describing them as sub-classifications of the other eight. Even the classifications differ in detail and so don't seem to give me any practical guidance.

One Tai Chi saying goes very roughly like: "Hold the eight trigrams in the arm; tread out the five phases/behaviors in the feet; and focus on the Taiji in your mind." For me, this means focusing the framework of the eight "energies" on arm and hand movement.

One of my teachers talks about using energy to deal with energy. I take this as my starting point. I understand it to mean that I want to join my energy with my opponent's through the contact point to make one Taiji. I control the development of that Taiji by moving second, but the key dynamic of the change can center either on me or my opponent and be offensive or defensive. Once the opponent's is controlled, it is then safe and advantageous to emit energy into them using strikes, kicks, grabs, take-downs, or locks. These are what I called "icing" in my previous post.

That same teacher, when talking about strategy, has often alluded to Sunzi's theories; and I take that as my end point. The semi historical Sunzi/Sun-Tzu prized flexibility and the dynamic of combination over a fixed repertoire of tactics and the prowess of individual soldiers. I thus try to set the goal of my practice on being able flexibly to combine energy to my advantage rather than on strengthening any particular repertoire of techniques.

As an overarching framework, my teacher has also frequently talked about the progression from 着习 (familiarity with movements), 懂劲 (understanding of energy), and 神明 (miraculous clarity/omniscience). I take the classification of the eight energies to be important to the first two steps, but not the last one.

As I have been taught, I begin with a largely choreographed application of each of the eight energies. One each is the minimum. One closed-position application and one open-position application is better. And three or more variations is excellent.

Although one energy is prominent, we make no bones about almost using them in combination. We assume that two contact points are generally required to have good control and so generally apply at least two instances of energy during an application. Even more is quite usual.

The applications force you to take a yang strategy, since you have to initiate them starting from our vertical circle and not simply wait for the opponent to give you the opportunity. We also have to respect the maximum of "moving second," and so the application forces you to learn how to lead the opponent to give you the energy you need to proceed, starting from our vertical circle and then transitioning to other circles or other adjustments as necessary.

Just working externally, you can make all the applications work after a fashion; and so I try to focus more on internal aspects as I move to the phase of "understanding energy." I try to examine what about the waist movement, timing, direction, changes in pressure, contact points, etc. leads the opponent to tend to do what you want. "Give up yourself and follow the other," even though you are starting from a leading position and are therefore yang in terms of aggressiveness.

For Ward off/Peng, I understand the quality you want the opponent to feel is that of rising energy, such as being buoyed up out of their root. In our standard application, to me this means focusing the energy into the opponent's shoulder in one of two ways so that their heels want to come up. The helping hand can use a variety of techniques to fix the second contact point.

For Rollback/Lu, I understand that the quality should be one of stroking out the opponent's energy, like stroking a beard into a point. In our standard application, one of the things I focus on is which arm needs to lead the opponent into position. You need to follow the opponent to understand which is most appropriate.

I know that some practitioners define Rollback as a diverting energy, for instance in their horizontal circle. Our horizontal circle is performed in a very large fashion. With a circle of this size, merely turning the waist is insufficient to deal with the opponent's energy without doing more. I sometimes try to demonstrate this by having students push on a Pilates ball I hold in front of me and try to use to turn their push aside. In this scenario, the opponent will still feel as if you are resisting the forward movement of their energy. I therefore focus on a different set of feelings to define Rollback.

For Press/Ji, I understand that the desired quality is crowding out the opponent's energy. "Squeeze" is probably a clearer translation of Ji3 One way I sometimes demonstrate the quality is by performing our horizontal circle with my back against a wall. Because of the size of our circle, I find it extremely difficult to continue the circle with Rollback if I have no ability to retreat. Instead, I can use Press in a defensive fashion, to squeeze the opponent's energy over to the other side and change into what we call the Four Energy Circle.

For Push/An, I focus on a quality of "pressing on the combined energy." I find the traditional translation of An as push to be very awkward, since many uses of this energy are not pushes. One frequent use is to control an oncoming punch by pressing lightly on the opponent's wrist and guiding it to the side. You cannot use "push" to mean this in English.

For Pluck/Cai, I think that "pluck" is a good description. As one of the "diagonal energies," the idea is to use a somewhat cruder from of energy manipulation if the first four more subtle, but straightforward techniques are insufficient.

The force of our grabbing technique is not at all gentle. This means that when you apply it, you not only give your opponent a clear point to attack, but also tend to provoke a counter reaction. This means that when you apply Pluck, you have to do more than just grab away and actually complete much of your control of the energy before actually letting your opponent feel the grab.

For Split/Lie, I am currently settling on "snapping torque" as the general idea. The torque can be in your body or the opponent's body, but the energy must snap in some way. A major use of this tactic is to twist out of a disadvantageous position to an advantageous one. Since the motion tends to involve some kind of urgent gyration, it is again cruder in application than the four "straight" energies.

For Elbow/Zhou, the idea is to use "elbowing" to control the energy flow when the fingers, hands, and forearms can no longer serve. As with the other energies, a focus of energy is described, but not necessarily any specific contact point. The opponent perceives the energy as focused on your elbow, but may be in contact with some other part of your body. On our standard application, the contact is actually with the upper arm.

For Shoulder Stroke/Kao, the idea is to use the vertical approach of the body to control the energy. This basically means anywhere from hip to shoulder.

After practicing these, we then practice at least one counter for each of the applications. More is better. This practices the Yin side of the strategy and begins to involve other aspects of energy exchange, such as changing the flow of full and empty to your advantage or trying to use your contact point to manipulate your opponent's ability to sink qi appropriately. If the opponent cannot sink their qi, they cannot power their techniques.

Once you gain proficiency in these and then combine them with moving step practice, you can best practice the variety of scenarios represented in the form in all their variations. At this point, you will have learned to emit energy proficiently and then can do so with any part of your body.

I would say that my training has not focused much at all on striking or kicking and yet I could say that I have trained or been shown ways to strike or emit energy from than two dozen places on the body. The focus has always been on learning better how to Fajin, rather than on the specifics of the particular strike. For example, I know about storing energy in general, but not how to "chamber" a Tai Chi punch.

As an example of this framework, I might discuss the energy involved in Chop with Fist in the Form as follows. After Fan through the Back, your right rear might be exposed to a strike. To deal with this, you pivot your body and drop your right elbow and palm to use Zhou/Elbowing or An/Push to control the energy of an oncoming punch and raise your left arm in Peng/Ward Off to guard your head. Then you drop your left arm and palm into An/Push or Pluck/Cai to free your right arm to circle into a backfist or finger slap.

I have run out of time for now and hope this helps.

Take care,
Audi
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby DPasek » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:48 pm

Audi,

Thanks for the reply, it contained a lot more interesting information than I was expecting! Also, thanks for elaborating on your understandings of the eight energies, there are many considerations contained in them that I definitely agree with. I suspect that it would be a lot of fun pushing hands with you.

Audi wrote:The classics taught about eight energies and assign them to the eight trigrams. I understand this as an implicit claim to an exhaustive classification that covers the totality of Tai Chi energy. Nevertheless, the writings of the various families talk a lot about other "energies" and don't seem too bothered about describing them as sub-classifications of the other eight. Even the classifications differ in detail and so don't seem to give me any practical guidance.

Yes, for example, Chen Yanlin discusses 25 energies (which include the 8+5=13), but the way that I view the 8 is still essentially comprehensive, although the others that Chen mentions are also certainly important and are incorporated into my practice.https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2014/03/18/taiji-boxing-according-to-chen-yanlin/

Audi wrote:One Tai Chi saying goes very roughly like: "Hold the eight trigrams in the arm; tread out the five phases/behaviors in the feet; and focus on the Taiji in your mind." For me, this means focusing the framework of the eight "energies" on arm and hand movement.

I know that this seems to work out nicely for weaponless Taijiquan, but the lists of 13 for the various weapons does not appear to follow this, and seem to be more likely a simple listing of the 13 most common (important?) techniques for that weapon even though it seems to be generally understood that there are other weapon techniques that are used but do not make the list of 13. So, while the correlations using the eight trigrams and the five elements/phases seems to work when referring to weaponless TJQ, and TJQ weapons are built on the foundation of the weaponless practice, the 13 assigned to the various weapons do not appear to follow similar correspondences.

I tend to view the energies of Peng, Lu, Ji and An as typically being applied with the hands/wrists, but could also be expressed with other points of contact with the body (e.g., the feet, knees, elbows, torso or even the head). If expressed with the elbows or knees, it would be Zhou; if expressed with the torso it would be Kao. Cai is easiest with the hands since they can more easily grab (pluck) than can other parts of the body. Lie requires multiple points of application in order to apply the push/pull that generates torque, although the points of contact do not need to be the hands.

Despite the above, I do understand that many practitioners may not consider trips or sweeps or kicks, etc., for example, to fall within the eight energies like I do; and I personally think that the expression of many of the eight energies can be done with parts of the body other than the hands, so perhaps I tend to explain the saying that you mentioned more as the eight energies as being concerned with the point of contact with the partner/opponent rather than just referring literally to the hands (although contact with the hands is more frequent than with other parts of the body). I do still primarily view the five phases as being in the feet since they seem to deal with how we move in space (advancing, retreating, shifting and turning), although I suppose that they could also apply to other parts of the body if someone was no longer standing.

Audi wrote:One of my teachers talks about using energy to deal with energy. I take this as my starting point. I understand it to mean that I want to join my energy with my opponent's through the contact point to make one Taiji. I control the development of that Taiji by moving second, but the key dynamic of the change can center either on me or my opponent and be offensive or defensive. Once the opponent's is controlled, it is then safe and advantageous to emit energy into them using strikes, kicks, grabs, take-downs, or locks. These are what I called "icing" in my previous post.

I perhaps have a somewhat more complex view of this since I view every point of contact with the partner as creating a taiji diagram with them, while I simultaneously attempt to maintain the yin/yang cycle (a three dimensional taiji diagram) in myself throughout the interaction. Perhaps more like the following illustration if considering just two people interacting at one point (and more complex with each additional point of contact that is added):
Image

Audi wrote:That same teacher, when talking about strategy, has often alluded to Sunzi's theories; and I take that as my end point. The semi historical Sunzi/Sun-Tzu prized flexibility and the dynamic of combination over a fixed repertoire of tactics and the prowess of individual soldiers. I thus try to set the goal of my practice on being able flexibly to combine energy to my advantage rather than on strengthening any particular repertoire of techniques.
and
Audi wrote:Although one energy is prominent, we make no bones about almost using them in combination. We assume that two contact points are generally required to have good control and so generally apply at least two instances of energy during an application. Even more is quite usual.

More often than not, I also view the energies as being used in combinations. Even the postures that practitioners often use to specifically illustrate a specific energy, to me are typically demonstrated using a combination of energies (although the one that they are focusing on may be the predominant energy being expressed).

Audi wrote:The applications force you to take a yang strategy, since you have to initiate them starting from our vertical circle and not simply wait for the opponent to give you the opportunity. We also have to respect the maximum of "moving second," and so the application forces you to learn how to lead the opponent to give you the energy you need to proceed, starting from our vertical circle and then transitioning to other circles or other adjustments as necessary.

“Moving second” is a tricky concept, and I am not certain that I agree with you here. We ‘prime’ ourselves for action even before the partner/opponent moves (or even before we touch each other), sort of like already having potential energy (the already drawn bow ready to release). In the rubber ball analogy that I like to use, this would be the properly filled aspect. A ball does not move on its own, but as soon as it is touched it will respond; the response (rebounding, turning, moving...) would be simultaneous with the touch if the ball is properly inflated, especially if it’s movements are unrestricted like a ball floating on water. But since the ball does not initiate the action, I suppose that one could say that the initiator moved first even though the interaction becomes simultaneous.

TJQ does seem to have a preference for having the partner/opponent moving first, or initiating the interaction. I think that this may be due to the tendency for the initiator to then have a primary action that often makes it difficult for them to change in response to our actions (counteractions). Also, ‘borrowing force’ is a common strategy used in TJQ, and to borrow force one needs the partner/opponent to be issuing force, thus they are encouraged to move first.

On the other hand, I have also been taught to flow towards the partner/opponent’s spine like water flowing downhill. If there are obstacles, then flow around them, but if there are gaps (a lack of obstacles) then just continue flowing into them. This would seem to be a type of moving first (initiating the interaction) and perhaps is more aggressive than many schools may teach.

My understanding is also that you want to present them with a challenge (even if only a feint) in order to provoke a response that you then use against them if a fault is detected. Some may present this as ‘asking a question’ that they must answer. If they answer correctly, you would seek another way to ‘ask’ them another question, but if they ‘answer’ incorrectly, then you use their response to defeat them.
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby windwalker » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:02 pm

How does push hands in Taijiquan, Rou Sou in Baguazhang, or chi sao in wing chun translate into actual fighting when no contact has been established? like for example when fighting a long range fighter such as a western boxer or Jeet Kune Do man


It would seem like the best answer would come from those who told you you this.
contact begins before physical contact is made.

"Form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form; emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness; whatever is form, that is emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form, the same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses and consciousness."
The Heart Sutra

Before you actually make physical contact, assume an attitude of emptiness. With that established you can very lightly touch your partner’s hand. Once you have touched him, you must not move of your own volition. Think of this phase strictly as a means of training your sensitivity and awareness.

Then you use your superior emptiness, awareness, perception, and sensitivity to engage your spirit in order to neutralize even his slightest intent towards movement against you, following and adhering without gaps or resistance.

Under these conditions, his faults will unfailingly be immediately apparent to you and the opportunity to deal with his movement will spring naturally to your hands. At your merest whim, you will have him trying to seize the wind and grasping at shadows.

"Master Li Yaxuan’s Explanatory Notes on Push Hands
[Excerpts from Chinese book: 李雅轩杨氏太极拳推手诠真; translation by Scott Meredith"
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby ChiDragon » Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:51 pm

kung fu fighter wrote:"From what I've been told by teachers of the so called internal arts, The whole purpose of pushing hands (which is their version of sticking hands), is for students to ultimately learn to do it without touching. Opening and closing without giving the energy or decepting it to find the direct line of attack! So once again the idea of doing it without touching was nothing new. It was the purpose of it.;)"

I read the above somewhere online

How does push hands in Taijiquan, Rou Sou in Baguazhang, or chi sao in wing chun translate into actual fighting when no contact has been established? like for example when fighting a long range fighter such as a western boxer or Jeet Kune Do man


In Tai Ji, the idea in push hands is to make contact with the opponent, in order, to feel the exerting force(勁, jin) of the opponent. As soon the jin was felt, then it is time to initiate the counter attack by getting the opponent off balance and fall to the ground.

I don't know too much about Rou Sou in Baguazhang. However, I know something about wing chun. Wing Chun does the initial attack be getting close to the opponent; and lunge the strike at a short distance without the opponent being aware of. Unfortunately, by the time the opponent was aware of, it was too late. The damage had already done to the opponent.

In boxing, one is always aware where the strike was coming from. It was just require a quick defensive move for the encounter.
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby UniTaichi » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:47 am

kung fu fighter wrote:
"From what I've been told by teachers of the so called internal arts, The whole purpose of pushing hands (which is their version of sticking hands), is for students to ultimately learn to do it without touching. Opening and closing without giving the energy or decepting it to find the direct line of attack! So once again the idea of doing it without touching was nothing new. It was the purpose of it.;)"

I read the above somewhere online

How does push hands in Taijiquan, Rou Sou in Baguazhang, or chi sao in wing chun translate into actual fighting when no contact has been established? like for example when fighting a long range fighter such as a western boxer or Jeet Kune Do man


Hi Kung fu fighter,

Not saying that it can be done or not as stated by your teacher but the main criteria is to have two person who have achieved the same high level skill set needed to do this no-touch kungfu.

Another way to look at it is ; the purpose of ph is to train a person, to detect the opponent energy changes w/o touching. Let say you and me ph. For me on the off-set, w/o touching you I can detect your energetic changes. Yes, this can be done.

Another quote is similar and quite well known ; To fight w/o fighting.

Is the same concept. Again take you and me. We face each other for a show-down. However, I can feel your energy is much stronger than mine. I just turn and goes off without finger a hand. And you win the fight w/o lifting a finger as well.

Learn qigong at the same time you learn your taichi if you want to push hand w/o touching.

Cheers,
UniTaichi
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby ChiDragon » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:53 pm

UniTaichi wrote:Hi Kung fu fighter,

Not saying that it can be done or not as stated by your teacher but the main criteria is to have two person who have achieved the same high level skill set needed to do this no-touch kungfu.

Another way to look at it is ; the purpose of ph is to train a person, to detect the opponent energy changes w/o touching. Let say you and me ph. For me on the off-set, w/o touching you I can detect your energetic changes. Yes, this can be done.

Another quote is similar and quite well known ; To fight w/o fighting.

Is the same concept. Again take you and me. We face each other for a show-down. However, I can feel your energy is much stronger than mine. I just turn and goes off without finger a hand. And you win the fight w/o lifting a finger as well.

Learn qigong at the same time you learn your taichi if you want to push hand w/o touching.

Cheers,
UniTaichi


I think there is a misconception by some misleading information here! Tai Chi push hand is based on detecting the jin of the counterpart by contact. The quote in blue is not very practical nor it is a common practice in Tai Chi.

The quote in red is very mythical. I had seen lots of scenes with the myth in some Kung Fu movies. Anyway, high level masters could tell the strength by the physical appearance of the opponent without making contact. It could tell, definitely, by a slight contact.
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby global village idiot » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:56 am

The quote in red is very mythical. I had seen lots of scenes with the myth in some Kung Fu movies.


I think it could be more simply stated that one opponent psyched the other out in some fashion.

I'd also say if you're THAT good at getting in your opponent's noggin, you need to get out of the tai chi business and start visiting the casinos in Las Vegas and Monte Carlo! :lol:

gvi
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby UniTaichi » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:12 pm

Hi CD,

Sorry I did not express it clearer.

The purpose of ph is to train a student to ultimately learn to detect the opponent energy changes w/o touching. But first we have to train ph via contact. That is , using touch to detect energy.

I do not know on what bases you said that it is not practical. Have you seen it in action or learned it ? It is not a common practice I can agree.

Many school do not teach because they do not know how. Or most time don't even know there is such a skill.

EMA, External Martial Art use external physical energy, IMA use Internal Energy(Qi/Yi/Shen).

IMA too have physical but emphasize more on structure.

The quote in red is very mythical.


Examples given by you and GVI like physical appearance, by psyched, add gut feeling, six sense and some other way, shows you that it can be done using many way. IMA has its own method/technique.

Anyway, I am not trying to convince anyone. Just to let it be known that there are such skill.

Cheers,
UniTaichi
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